We were hanging out, drinking beers, making conversation - when the topic turned to politics and left-wing vs. right-wing. Actually, it started with me asking Earl what he thought about Gay people. And also Gay marriage. To be fair to Earl, he did say a few times: "I don't want to have this conversation" but i pushed him.
At first he said: "y'know, i don't care what they do, i think it's wrong, but they can do whatever they want."
SmallOne and i asked him what his rationale behind his thinking was. He wouldn't give a solid answer, just that it was wrong. I asked if he thought that Gay people should have the right to be married, and he said no because it was wrong. Again, "Why? what's the rationale behind your thinking? Is it that you believe that Marriage is Sacred?" at which point he made a point to leave religion out of the equation.
"Why do we have to bring religion into it?"
"Oh, i was just asking, okay. SO if its not a religious thing, then what is it that makes it wrong?"
"it just is."
sigh. okay. new approach.
"Okay, so what do you think about two chicks fucking? would you be okay with that?"
"Am i there?"
"Whoah, no... i'm not saying you're there. Take yourself out of the equation. How do you feel about the thought of two hot chicks doing each other?"
"Well, i still think it's not right - "
"But it's okay cuz their chicks?"
"No, i mean, it's hot. but it's not right."
"Okay, what about porn? Do you watch girl on girl porn?"
"Yeah"
"And it's hot? like, you masturbate to it, and bust a nut?"
"well, yes."
"Okay, so. Now if it's two guys--"
"NO, that's wrong."
"So, is it that you think that it's wrong or because it makes YOU uncomfortable."
"no. it's just wrong."
this went on for quite some time. Eventually, he DID bring religion into it, how he believed that God didn't make humans bodies for that. That they were designed for penis/vagina intercourse only - to procreate. When i asked him if he procreated every time he had sex, he said no. So then i asked him how it was any different. "it just is."
I asked him if he had any gay friends. He said "No, and i if i did, they wouldn't be my friends anymore."
"Really? So, let's say you have a best friend - you've known him since you were 6, you played in little league together, double dated for prom, he's your kegger buddy, best buds... and he said to you one day: Earl, i'm gay--"
"He wouldn't be my friend anymore."
"Really??"
"I would basically want nothing to do with him."
"Well, it's not like he wants to fuck you, he's not even attracted to you... you wouldn't hang with him anymore?"
"No."
We kept talking, eventually he said he was sugar coating it, then he said: "Yes, i think it's wrong, i think all Gay people should be shot!"
I mean, i know that close minded people are out there. Maybe i've just been blessed by the people i surround myself with, my friends and family. It shocked me.
But i should have expected it - he was a self-proclaimed conservative redneck. And that there was no way, no amount of discussion that could ever change his mind to what his faith told him was right or wrong. There is no grey area.
i thought of some of the people in my life who are gay. I felt awful that Earl wanted to condemn them to death because his god says they're wrong.
It wasn't just sexual orientation that he had strong views about. He also didn't think we should bother doing anything about the environment or the planets natural resources because it's easier to keep doing things the way they're already being done. and that the economy is booming right now and his house is worth a lot of money...so it's okay that by this time next year there won't be any ice in the Arctic because he'll have money to buy stuff.
When Hank said; "You can't buy the Environment Back, Earl. You can't!"
Earl said; "It doesn't matter, the system is working now."
it was a very heated discussion about orientation, the environment, oil, religion...
when we left that night, i just felt heavy with disappointment in mankind. It made me feel ashamed and embarrassed.
i did some meditating last night, and smudged myself to rid the negative energy i was feeling.
we need to change the world. We NEED to have tolerance, you can't go around saying that "All the Gays should be shot!", this has happened once already in Nazi Germany! Have we forgotten this? Have we forgotten the millions of innocent men women and children who were murdered for no FUCKING REASON?? Is this the world that people want to bring to the future? a planet where it's okay to destroy someone because they don't fit into your view? Fuck that!
i know that some of my readers are christian, and i really don't want to offend anyone. That's the last thing i want. But people like Earl are part of the reason i left the church. Close minded individuals who believe in a Merciful God who will love you unconditionally UNLESS you happen to be gay. (that seems like a condition to me).
i have my own personal relationship with God. but if i'm going to believe in his unconditional love, then it has to be unconditional. If i choose to fall in love with a man and get married, i deserve God's love. If i choose to fall in love with a woman, i am still God's child and i Still Deserve his love. Who i love doesn't make me any less of a person worthy of God's Love, of romantic love, of respect.
this post has sort of rambled off on me. i apologize. I couldn't sleep this morning, it's all i could think about... the arguments rolling over and over again in my head. I had to get it out.
16 people love me:
You ramble when you need to ramble. It's allowed. It is something worthy of discussion after all. People need to learn to be able to discuss things without going all batsh!t crazy anyway. I will say I'm surprised you kept asking this guy about stuff but I can see you being curious too for a reason behind his feelings. I will never understand people - so many of them just blindly follow tradition without knowing why but really feel that is the only right way. I say it's not. Tradition doesn't make right. But some people just are closed-minded on some subjects. However, that alone doesn't make them bad people. Don't let it wear you down, I feel bad for them because they can't even consider other scenarios. I think deep down it scares them cuz it would shake up their world.
And to think I could have been in on this fun time.
Close-minded people are all around us. No use arguing with them. They always think they know better. People are still daily judged by inconsequential things like the colour of their skin, sexual preference, religion, etc.
I would know. My older brother is one of them. My younger brother is gay. I've got an interesting family.
Better to know your enemy, see what makes him tick...
I know, it's demoralizing, but he probably went to bed rethinking his worldview. Maybe you were the first to call him on it.
teeni,
i know, i probably should have let it go earlier on. But i guess i was just trying to understand where he was coming from. At first he said it wasn't a religious thing, so then what WAS the reason? but then he flipped and said - okay it IS a religious thing. sigh.
you're right. Tradition doesn't make something right. Just because it's been done one way doesn't mean there isn't a newer better way out there. i mean, if everyone thought this way we wouldn't have the wheel, or electricity, or radio waves... you need to question things to continue to learn and grow and evolve as a race.
i'm trying not to let it get to me. Luckily i know 20 people who are open minded and tolerant for every one ignorant person i know.
Mika,
you would have loved it. Seriously, some of this guys arguments just didn't make any sense at all.
Glugster,
thanks for coming back!
i would say that would make for an interesting family, for sure. You're right, it's not worth arguing with a close minded person, but i feel like if I don't, then who will? who will try?
i seem to remember something in the Bible about loving thy neighbor, i think it's in the back somewhere. LOL
I hope both of your brothers find happiness and remember how much they love each other.
Geoff,
thanks. he made me pretty upset. i guess all i can do at this point is hope that something got through to him. Maybe the next time someone discusses this with him, it'll lodge our conversation in deeper, and the next time, and the next time, until hopefully someday there's a crack big enough to open that mind a smidge.
Where are you from Geoff?
What gives me hope in humanity is the fact that you held the line until he had to say his hate and didn't let him hide behind vague statements.
Where does Earl live? I'll bring a ring of butch rugby players over to teach him how "hot" lesbians can make his (crushed) nuts.
Also wondering if Hank was mortified?
Deb,
he's from Little Texas, otherwise known as Alberta. Bring on the rugby players
Also, yes, i believe Hank may have been embarrassed. i only transcribed MY arguments with Earl, but almost everyone else at the table was involved.
thanks
Lol... when you said "grey area" I first read "gay area". :)
I'm one of your readers who's Christian, and I chose to join the church **in spite of** folks like Earl. Maybe because I don't think folks like Earl truly understand the Word, and that's the last I'll say about that.
I've found the more uncomfortable someone is about "things that are different" (not that homosexuality is different, but to folks like Earl, I guess it is), like punk rockers, nipple piercings, transcendental meditation, vegetarianism, etc. ... anything out of the "WASP" comfort zone...I think that there is an inverse relationship between that comfort and the person's own self-assurance, confidence, and, to be blunt, love of self (and then you can extrapolate that to 'those around you').
Think about the most holy people in the world (not "Jesus" holy, but just...you know...spiritually big); do they hold open their arms and embrace everyone, regardless of what they do with their hair, their bodies, or their genitalia? I think they do.
Acceptance is holy.
I'm sorry your conversation with Earl disturbed you this much, but it's good that it did, in a way, too, because at least you know you're still who you want to be.
How in the world did you get on that topic anyway? People like that need a good hard slap with reality. Whether you're gay or not, you're still a human. When I found out my friend was gay it didn't bother me, he was still the same guy but his "type" had changed. My brother still calls him his friend, but I don't understand how. He's one of those people completely against it. So how can you be a friend when you won't talk to him because he's gay? I don't understand.
It's sad to think that this guy treasures his things over the world he lives in!! But we'll see how much his house is worth once he's living beside a landfill!
I think there is way too much emphasis put on sexual orientation. I dont understand how who someone chooses to sleep with is anyone else's business. Gay, Straight, or Bi, it should all be kept private and in the bedroom. I dont care who people sleep with. They are still people. Who they sleep with doesnt change anything. Neither does skin color or the God they chose to worship. At the end of the day none of that matters, so why does it need to be broadcast? As for gay marriage, I see no problem with it. I believe that every human being has the right to a loving, stable relationship and family. If that means marriage, go for it. If it means living together, again, go for it. If it makes you happy and isnt hurting anyone else, enjoy! I think this world would be a whole lot better off if people would stop worrying about what Joe on the corner is doing and worry more about whats happening in their own home. I will stop now before I write an entire Blog as a reply LOL
I am a Christian. I am a church employee. I am informed by my faith to be tolerant, open-minded, left-wing and concerned for the environment. There are a lot of right-wing wackos who go to church and use religion as an argument to support their meanness. There are also a lot of right-wing wackos who don't go to church and use something else as an argument to support their meanness. I refuse to let the wackos drive me away from the church.
Besides, from inside, I have the opportunity to do things like I did yesterday, when I taught a group of teenagers that every time they recycle or conserve energy or care for the planet or share with the poor, they are practising good stewardship of creation and being co-creators with God.
As a side note, if a person is not sleeping with me, I really don't see how it is any of my business who they are sleeping with.
Fourleaf,
LOL
Cenobyte,
I think that there is an inverse relationship between that comfort and the person's own self-assurance, confidence, and, to be blunt, love of self (and then you can extrapolate that to 'those around you'). well said.
i know that people like Earl are NOT the norm in the Christian world. That being said, it doesn't make those types of people any less frustrating or their hypocrisy any easier to bear. People like Earl are not the Only reason i left the church, but they certainly didn't make me want to stick around.
The last thing i want is for any person to thing that i'm against all Christians, or Christians in general. I'd say that 99.5% of Christians i know are very loving and caring and accepting tolerant people. And i DO know a lot of Christians.
Thanks for your comment.
Melsie,
keep in mind, we were at a bar and there was alcohol involved. LOL. and i do take responsibility for pushing him into that conversation, but he held his own, and to be fair to Earl we left the bar on good terms for the most part. Each of us accepting that the other person was entitled to their opinions. But, if he DOES end up moving to the Skatch, i doubt i'll hang out with him much.
Also, in time i'm hope your brother will learn to accept your friend. Look at how far your man has come in that area. it's all new and part of a world they don't understand yet. As time wears on, they'll soon realize that he's still the same person inside. :D
Calamity,
thanks for your comment, i totally agree with you. in regards to marriage - i watched this great clip from a film called "God and Gays" (I think, is that right RLL?) and there was one line that stood out - i thought it was great. One man was quoted saying: "if you let us marry each other we'll stop marrying YOU!"
lol.
Mrs. Dymund,
i'm happy to hear that you're using your power for good instead of evil. LOL. Seriously, though, it makes me excited to read things like that, and it gives me hope.
thanks for commenting.
I disapprove of that particular Earl's name and/or very existence.
It's an embarrassment to all right-minded Earls everywhere.
wow, Your Earl is as much of an ass as mine is.....
i'm sorry, i have no tolerance for ignorance or closed-mindedness....
My impulse when anyone mentions God and how He this or that is to think; "What's this HE shytte?"
I don't want to think of God having dangly bits.
The exclusionism of some churches frightens me.
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